Did Jesus Even Exist? | Richard Carrier

Mythicists vary in their viewpoints, but there are central similarities. Nevertheless, there is not much difference from our findings, than from Richard Carrier, despite him approaching it from the Atheist standpoint, which doesn’t really matter. I do think one well-versed in Occult symbolism and the aims and purposes of the ‘Ancient Mysteries’ are more capable of explaining why exactly, these similarities exist, besides syncretism. The similitude and patterns are by design. The secular historian wants to explain it all away through syncretism, and often disregard anything special or falsifiable about the ideas or symbolism. It is only expected, but this was covered in Theosophical Gleanings on the Mysteries and the Language of Mythology.

Christians cannot explain it to you, unless they study the origins, history, purpose and meaning of ‘Initiatory Mysteries.’ Viewpoints about it, have been skewered by Christians supposing a demonic origin, in addition to having historically explained similarities away as personations of the devil, false prophets, etc. Jesus is considered the unique “Anointed,” the literal Son of God, the Soter, etc. The language, oracular vocabulary and patterns under the traditional cults and schools is there in the ‘Anti-Gnostic Christianity’ (or Christianism), syncretized into the Jesus-character of the NEW TESTAMENT, who is assumed to be a historical-figure. At that, he is considered apparently, the only true Soter in the entire history of the human race. The true Christós, is considered in the Hindu (or rather Indian) Esotericism, and to the Gnostic and Theosophist as corresponding to the Anatman/Atman of the Upanishads (meaning ‘secret doctrine’), Advaita and Vedanta, to Buddha, Vishnu, &c. ‘Occult Philosophy’ places it entirely within means of experiential discovery and evolution; rejecting the Christian’s exclusivist notion, considered sacrilege, delusional, a travesty, a copy, even criminal.

The Christian creed however, needs the myth of Jesus — the man-god that is worshipped, like the lesser mystery-cults regarding Bacchus, the ‘liberator-god.’ Some people placed these gods also within history. The secret doctrine actually points to it, as an entirely impersonal and universal Principle in nature, and thus the “Christos” has never set foot on earth, and Richard Carrier deals with this in —

Christianity Without Jesus

Helena P. Blavatsky adds in her Notes on Abbe Roca that:

“The true Christians died with the last of the Gnostics, and the Christians of our day are but the usurpers of a name they no longer understand (…) Moreover, the Christians, by localizing and isolating this great Principle, and denying it to any other man except Jesus of Nazareth (or the Nazar), carnalize the Christos of the Gnostics.”

The most important fact, is that Christ and Chrest belong to the temple vocabulary of ascetics belonging to an oracle, or vehicles of the oracle and the oracular temples. The condition of Chrestos is similar to the conditional states conceived in the practical esotericism of the Daoists and other practical systems, regarding states of purity, perfectibility, and immortality. Christians in the accepted narrative say, their Jesus was not just a “pure man” (or good man), but the ‘Son of God.’ However, the state of the Chrestos, as a “pure man,” refers to a spiritual and mental state also; and these persons are regarded as revived, harmonized with their god, initiates, etc. They, just as Jesus, made to seem semi-ascetic, travel the arduous path of asceticism.

Richard Carrier has actually demonstrated, that some early Christian sects existed that did also believe the Gospels were allegorical myths, but 2 Peter was written or devised to discredit those sects. Theosophist, James Morgan Pryse, regarded the Gospels as forgeries.

The true history will prove more fascinating than the orthodox narrative, and the apologists all have a million different excuses to explain away suspicions, that have become justifiable at this point.

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11 Comments

    1. One of the Mahatma Papers (Letter no. 38) also state, that “… neither knew the other John the Baptist having never heard of Jesus who is a spiritual abstraction and no living man of that epoch.” Placing a man, the one who died in Lydda accused of being a magician 100 years prior to the so-called “Christ Era” or NT Jesus, still helps the case of Dr. Richard Carrier.

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  1. Another testimony by HPB’s Master M, found also in CW VIII. She was interviewed by Charles Johnston:

    At certain regular periods, [the Adepts] try to give the world at large a right understanding of spiritual things. One of their number comes forth to teach the masses, and is handed down to tradition as the Founder of a religion. Krishna was such a Master; so was Zoroaster; so were Buddha and Shankara Acharya, the great sage of Southern India. So also was the Nazarene. He went forth against the counsel of the rest, to give to the masses before the time, moved by a great pity, and enthusiasm for humanity; he was warned that the time was unfavorable, but nevertheless he elected to go, and so was put to death at the instigation of the priests.”

    [CJ] “Have the adepts any secret records of his life?”

    “They must have,” she answered; “for they have records of the lives of all Initiates. Once I was in a great cave-temple in the Himalaya mountains, with my Master,” and she looked at the picture of the splendid Rajput; “there were many statues of adepts there; pointing to one of them, he said: ‘This is he whom you call Jesus. We count him to be one of the greatest among us.’

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    1. Yes, this passage was posted before on the site. Jeshua Ben-Panthera, or Pandira. To also add to that is regarding the Notes on Roca (http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v8/y1887_048.htm) when H.P.B. says: “I say the scholars are either lying or talking nonsense. Our Masters affirm the statement. If the story of Jehoshua or Jesus Ben-Pandira is false, then the whole Talmud, the whole Jewish Canon is false. He was the disciple of Jehoshua Ben Perahiah, the fifth President of the Sanhedrin after Ezra who re-wrote the Bible. Compromised in the revolt of the Pharisees against Jannaeus in 105 B.C., he fled into Egypt carrying the young Jesus with him. This account is far truer than that of the New Testament which has no record in history.”

      What I like about Dr. Richard Carrier however, is that he is doing the research. He need not rely on what a “Master” might have said or didn’t say, and he has found the same discrepancies that I and others have found. The same issues, ignored or not known.

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      1. Due to my laziness in not wanting to look at an hour plus video – tell me if my guess is correct. Carrier, as a conventional Atheist, not only denies the reality of the biblical Jesus, but also denies the possibility of any such divine Sage existing at any time?

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      2. Not really. He’s a Ph.D. He became an atheist after a transformative experience while studying Daoism, and began to look for explanations in science. I wouldn’t discount him as merely conventionalist. I think we have too many fantasies about what exactly is a “divine Sage,” so I think it is good he is stripping the myths. It is helpful. We shouldn’t care if he is Atheist. He’s doing work and he interestingly likes to debate on these topics with other Mythicists and Creationists. I’ll be sharing more of him. He states his main points usually within 10 mins on the videos though.

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  2. We all have our interests, mine is not the non-existence of the biblical Jesus, which I accept. Long before Carrier others have made the same or similar arguments – no big deal. What is important is the gap in the intellect of most Western thought, regarding the reality of flesh & blood Adepts, Divine Sages, Masters like Jesus Ben Pandira, Buddha, Krishna etc who are the reality behind mythic religions.

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    1. People cannot be convinced of such a thing, when there are so many fakes and discrepancies in the historical record, and the morass of myth covering them. Richard Carrier has the influence, and credibility, which makes him quite more important than any obscure occultist, which because of its unnecessary stigma, fraudulent, and cartoonish reputation, most of the public does not engage with, material-wise. I think it was covered what you stated, about them disregarding the “reality.” I don’t think Richard Carrier is merely conventional. You’re kind of just disregarding him. These types of videos are really good for people who come to the blog, perhaps not you; but especially after Easter passing and realizing how many people take these myths seriously and how it affects even the ability of Theosophists to reach them, regarding the universal meanings underlying myths and celebrations.

      The point of showing Richard Carrier is to demonstrate, there are many people who have found the exact same things, and it is ridiculous it is disregarded, in the face of such evidences.

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      1. People can be convinced of practically anything, for most are not close students of what they believe. My main point is that in HPB’s day religion was the source of horrid stupidity & sectarianism. Today, the other dusty wing of conventional thought is so-called Science which is dominant. Religion sects are dying and have little effect on society compared to Scientism. So I think the White Dove of Theosophy needs to spend more attention in the ‘still more degrading’ arena of ‘brutal materialism’ and forget about religious groups.

        As a great Sage once put it:
        “The intellectual portions of mankind seem to be fast dividing into two classes, the
        one unconsciously preparing for itself long periods of temporary annihilation or
        states of non-consciousness owing to the deliberate surrender of their intellect, its
        imprisonment in the narrow grooves of bigotry and superstition, a process which
        cannot fail to lead to the utter deformation of the intellectual principle; the other
        unrestrainedly indulging its animal propensities with the deliberate intention of
        submitting to annihilation pure and simple in cases of failure, to millenniums of
        degradation after physical dissolution. Those “intellectual classes,” reacting upon
        the ignorant masses which they attract and which look up to them as noble and fit
        examples to follow, degrade and morally ruin those they ought to protect and guide.
        Between degrading superstition and still more degrading brutal materialism the
        white dove of truth has hardly room where to rest her weary unwelcome foot. . . .”

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  3. Decode hindu mythology blog for creation story.

    Shiva speaks from pillar of fire. Surabhi is the golden cow. Indra led the war in heaven against dragon Vritra and the sons of goddess Danu and goddess Diti. The defeated sons of Danu and Diti were cast out of heaven.

    Brahma and Saraswati like Abraham and Sarah.

    Swayambhu born with the body of his father Brahma was the first man, similar to adam.

    Vaivasvata is similar to Noah.

    Mahabali (Bali the Great) is the current king of netheworlds.

    Shukra is the god of the morning star and teacher of underworld.

    Krishna moved all his people from Mathura to Dwarka, like exodus.

    Krishna’s foster mother’s name is Yashoda (like Yashua)

    Head of Rahu like head of John Paptist.

    Little Skanda slayed the giant Tarakasur like David slayed Goliath. Shatkona is the star of Skanda.

    Swastika is Saptarishi constellation, 7 sages.

    Shiva destroyed the 3 sin cities Tripura.

    Shiva punished the goat headed Daksha.

    There are a lot of indians who discuss comparative religion and mythology in quora and I got it from there ha ha.

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